2chひろゆきと4chan創業者ムートが対談！　「ソーシャルメディアってなぁに？」：part3

ひ：その当時だったら120円ぐらいだと思うよ。

ジ：まあ、じゃあ150万円ぐらいドネーションもらって、その時のキャンペーンとしては「ドネートorダイ」、要はサイト自体はドネーションがなければ死んでしまうよ！　ということで、でもあれから、ずっとドネーションを受けずに、バナーを3つ出していて、それでブレーク・イーブン。ここでは儲かるっていうよりも、コミュニティを重視しているので。まあ企業は企業、コミュニティはコミュニティというのは自分の中では凄いはっきりしている。We've got a bunch of questions and they keep coming in from users! I let you read that one first.

ム：Do you know about the hacker who is Anonymous? If so, how do you feel about it?

ジ：質問としては、アノニマスという団体は知ってますか？　知っていればそれに関してどう思いますか？

ひ：まーソニーだよね。

ム：The Anonyms is a group, can trace it’s roots back to the 4chan, specifically to the /b/ board! I think a little more than 3 years ago, February 2008, when a video of Tom Cruise was posted on YouTube, and he was stamping for Scientology, he is a member. It's a kind of embarrassing video, because he was fanatical.

So the Scientology sent a cease and decease to YouTube and they took it down, in doing so a kind of angered the Internet, and all of the sudden people on 4chan and another site got together and decided to make a statement about that! Within a month organized a real offline meeting to protest!

To me, like they have a 100 different series around the world and continued. It's moved off from 4chan within a number of days. It's in own unique group and own unique community. These are different. The message board still exists in 4chan. To this day, it still continues to go after the cause and its supports.

ジ：アノニマスというのは、まあ当然知っていて、元々は2月の2008年に、トム・クルーズの映像がYouTubeに上がって、日本で知られているか分からないけど、彼はサイエントロジーというちょっと変わった宗教にはまっていて、その映像が望ましく無いということで、YouTubeに消してくれと言ったと。

で、そのアノニマスが、もともとは4chanの/b /・普通のところに人が集まってプロテストし始めて、出来た団体。それが元々のきっかけで、How do you feel about what they do?

ム：I never actually participated, I mean I’ve never post on the forums or been with the members on the chats and I never been to any of the protests! So my involvement is none existent, but I, a kind of everybody else been as a casual observer of it. I think it's fascinating! That's so many people were able to come together at once, have a kind of common bond! And take that and moving it to an offline to protest. The movement is sustained itself for years now, it's certainly interesting to watch!

ジ：自分としては参加はしないけども、ずっと見てて長く続くっていうのと、あれだけ何百人いるか分からないけども、すごい固まって熱意が凄い！っていう風には思っていますと。Shall we move on to another question? Let's find a hard one! This is an interesting one! What functionalities make a fun web site on the user-driven sites? How can developers help grow & expand user uploaded products settings?

ム：I think the main draw to 4chan was, again my main draw to Futaba was. Although I couldn't understand it, the fact that constantly updating, you can really sense the presence of other users. Even though none of the pages in both Futaba and 4chan pages were delivered in real time, we don't have live comments and live chats like Nico-Dou and other sites.

You can just sit there and refresh pages and see new contents. And /b/ in thread and simultaneously with other users, and that's a kind of presence in the activity takes place in a small confined space that I think very interesting in front of the participating. That why, a part of the reason 4chan is the centre for a lot of these mean business culture; you take a lot of people and squeeze them into a very small space.

4chan is 12 million people and 50 boards, a large chunk of the traffic is in just the /b/ board. Millions of millions of people got squeezed into smaller space of 15 threads per page times 16 pages now, and you, out of that, comes a lot of creativity!

ジ：まあ質問としては、ウェブ・サイトの面白い機能とは何か？　特にそのユーザー・ジェネレーテッド・コンテンツがメインのサイトにおいて。ムートさんは、やっぱり、ふたばでも、4chanでも見る度にどんどんどんどん更新されていて、ニコ動みたいにリアルタイム性はないけれども、必ず新しいものが入ってくるので、それがすーごい面白いと。

彼のもう一つの発想としては、例えば/b/ボードというのがメインのボードなんだけども、その50個のボードしかない中でこの/b/ボードが一番流行っていて、それでも15スレッドスレートの16ページでしかない。要は小っちゃな部屋に多くの人を入れる。で、どんどん新しいコンテンツが上がっていく。その面白さはユーザー・ジェネレーテッド・サイトの強みというか、そこが一番面白いポイント。

Another question! 日本では悪者の2chですが、4chan cahnは欧米ではどんな感じでしょうか？　This is the one we were talking about earlier!（笑） 2ch is infamous in Japan, how is 4chan cahn is viewed or perceived in the US? Good reputation, or bad reputation?

ム：It has pretty mixed reputation. For one time people didn’t know 4chan, they knew the products of web, or contents, or cultures, means one that had been “please down the site and made it away a way out of the site out of internet”. Some of the things made it the mainstream culture. The best example would be “lol cats,” It's a silly picture of cats captioned with texts, that became a vile sensation.

Something started tracing its roots to 4chan and other sites, became you know, your mainstream kind of hits with the American public. People knew a stuff staff like that but didn't really know where it's came coming from! The press didn't write about 4chan till 2008! So for a long time 4chan was creating a lot of cultures and scenes, notorious to its own scenes, but only to the small amount of people. I think since then, the site is it's more well known, like you were saying?

ジ：One out of every three people is Nico-Dou subscriber!

ム：I think it's one of that, the most people who are, say, ages between 18 to 25, subscribe younger, more hip, say more nerdier nerdder, web subby kind of culture probably at least familiar with 4chan! Maybe they do and maybe they don't. It still needs to spread but I think it's becoming more widely known.

The perception is various, a fair fare weather kind of thing, say, we produce a hit, people laugh, and the other time is, say, we do something that a little more malicious or distasteful, then people maybe have a negative opinion for that.

ジ：それぞれ4chanに関しては、色んな意見あるんだけども、まあ半々くらいかなと。最初は猫系の映像がすごく多かったんだけど、その印象が結構長く続いて、すごくイヤだった。実際には2008年までは、そのウェブカルチャーっていうのを育てて、それまでは人がすごい少なかったんだけども、今だと恐らく18才～25才、ちょっとオタク系で、ウェブに詳しい人たちはアメリカにおいては4cahnていうもの自体は知っている。当然その内容によりけりなんだけれども、ヒットする面白そうなモノも出れば評判は良くなるし、ちょっと変なモノが出てくると評判は悪くなるし……。何か、2chと似てるよね？

ひ：一緒じゃない？　そういう所は。It's like 2ch!

ム：What are the memes MIMEs that a kind of express the 2-channel? Any recent ones come to your mind?

ひ：”Densha-Otoko” is the famous and good one!

ム：エルメスストア！ We went to Hermes to have a tea cup like he has! But that was three years ago.

ひ：最近はよく知らないんだよねー。I don't know much about 2-channel, right now.

ジ：最近は見てないの？

ひ：最近はねー、ニュース速報板ていうところで、ニュースを見てげらげら笑っているだけでさー（笑）。I'm using it for just a news flash board.

ム：Do you use a VIP dip?

ひ：No, not much right now!

ジ：もう1つ簡単な質問。そもそも何で何chanて言うんですか？　Why did you start with something channel?

ム：Because the service is based on Futaba, so, it was just keeping with the name, at that point, time we were pretty much identical, just translated into English.

ジ：What's about 2-channel?　2ちゃんねるは？

ひ：えーっとね、<a href="http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%81%82%E3%82%81%E3%81%9E%E3%81%86"target="_blank">「あめぞう」っていう掲示板があって、基本的にはそれのマネだったのね。

ジ：あめぞう？ 「あめぞう」から何で2chなの？

ひ：サブという意味で2ch。

ジ：なるほどねー。よく映画で、日本語吹き替えと英語の部分とか、そういう感じ？

ひ：そう、そんな感じ。

ジ：適当だね！（笑）（ムートに向かって）So we understand about Futaba and that relationship, and I asked him how he got 2ch.

ひ：There was a web named Amezou, that is a kind of a board. I was a user of the Amezou, I try to make a message board like Amezou. It's a kind of 2nd hand, and that is why I named I got 2-channel, so はい、あめぞうさんのお陰です！

（笑）

ジ：We take a couple of questions, and we'll wrap it up, how did you come came up with Moot or Rob, or you go by many aliases?

ム：That's actually very interesting,（笑）Moot was, I started using Mu for whatever the reason, and eventually became Moot. I actually did take Moot before any moot was a word! Like I was very young, before understanding moot call, or moot point was. And overtime many different names, most people still don't actually believe my name is Christopher! Robert, or Richard, people have their own theories, how old I really am, where I really live!

ジ：面白いのは、ちょうど先週「コミコン」サンディエゴで彼の知り合いが出て来て「あー来週ムートと会うんだね。ムートはもともとロブだったり、今はクリストファーと言っているんだけども……本当の年と名前は誰も知らない！」て。ムートっていうのは無意味なというのが直訳で、ムート・ポイントとかね。無意味なポイントとか何だけど……たぶんクリストファー・プール？（笑）　Do you have any ID card on you? IDカード見せて？

ひ：Maybe Christopher Poole, maybe not! Nobody knows.

ジ：じゃ、最後の質問にしようか！時間がおしちてるので、二人がそれぞれ想像する究極のソーシャル・メディア、あるいはソーシャル・メディアの最終形は何でしょうか？

ひ：ほうっ！ そんなん無いでしょう？

ジ：It's a question for both of you, what is your image of final or extreme? Where do you think social networking is going or social media is going in 10 or 20 years from now?

ム：Huum. You've got to get the first.

ひ：There is no ultimate social media or network! There should be like Facebook, real name world and there should be like anonymous one like our accounts. There is no such thing, a perfect social media!

ム：I think people are right now working on like decentralized alternatives. In US, a project called Diaspora! It's started as a kick starter as a kind of cloud founding, group founding project. Four students were started where you can have your own blog, you can be hosted by yourself.

And they can all be interconnected! They think it's should be the same way as your profile and your personal thing. It's an interesting idea, but I don't know the worlds is are ready for it, right at this minute. I think Facebook is approaching to a billion users in next few years, maybe even only a year from now. It's a mouse on the driving force, billion users in one place.

I wish there are kinds of pros that come along with in term of view build very strong graph and it's a kind of hard to extract people from like that! People always crave alternatives, every missed step Facebook makes create an opportunity to another company to come in, like Microsoft and Google. It's hard to imagine Facebook at the top forever. Hopefully, Diaspora, 2ch, Futaba and 4chan, we will continue to exist and to offer alternatives to people!.

ジ：彼が言うには、Diasporaデスペラ－って言う、カードファンディングっていうのがあって、それはまあ自分のブログ、自分の世界を作って他のブログと連携取るみたいなサービスなんだけど。たぶん今すぐには無理だけども、例えば自分のノードを持ったりとか、そこまでなっていく可能性はあるんじゃないかと。

今だと一カ所、例えばfacebookだったら1カ所に集中しているけども、もうちょっとディ・セントラタイズ、分散された形になって行くだろうと。但し、facebookの目標というのが、ユーザーがあと1年で10億人を狙っていると。ただしfacebookが何か一つでも間違えたら、次にチャンスが出てくるから、色んな企業が出て来るだろうと。

だからもっともっと活性化して行く、業界としてはもっと面白くなってくる。一番いい例としては、たとえばマイクロソフトは、5年前、10年前だったらマイクロソフトだけだったのが、グーグルがいきなり出てきて新しいサービスが展開された。そういった可能性が今後どんどん出てくるんで、結構その辺は楽しみ！

ひ：（ジェームスを指して）彼、元々マイクロソフト社員！ He was a Microsoft guy.

ジ：So any last thought on Canvas, anything you wanna say about it? When you plan to touch roll out the final service?

ム：Opening it up coming weeks or months, still very very early, and very very Beta. But we are having a fun with it as a team and our community having a fun with it. We love to see more people to use it, so we can collect more feedback and grow it a kind of organically as 4chan did!

4chan always continued to be separate; 4chan offers distinct kind of some products, unique community, we don't wanna have any sort of impacts on that. As long as 4chan can sustain itself, I will be more than happy to continue running it as long as I can. But the Canvas will be the thing I'm focusing right now!

ジ：彼は今後、数週間、数カ月でキャンバスをベータからファイナルの方に持って行きたいんだけれども、まあ今本当に楽しくて楽しくて、チームとしてはどんどんよく改良していって、でベータユーザに対しては是非フィードバックくださいと.

そのフィードバックによってどんどんサイトが使いやすくなるし、面白くなるし、なので期待してくださいと。彼としては凄いこだわりがあって、4chanは4chanで在って欲しいし、そのまま継続して行くし、キャンバスはキャンバスで違った事が出来る、ということで皆、本当に期待して欲しいと！

ひ：It's like for our 2ch and Nico-Nico-Douga.

ム：How do you manage, having a full time job for Nico and a hobby project for 2ch? And you still find a time for both?

ジ：2ちゃんとニコニコを両方やって結構大変じゃない？

ひ：I don't use much time on 2ch, suing is more, the legal issues are taking something. Time is important.

ム：Haha.

ジ：That' s actually, how they are going, for you! Have you ever been sued or have you seen any legal issues, how do you avoid in US? ユーザーの方から裁判の話が出てきて、あまり細かく言えないんだけれど……。

ひ：ぜんぜん細かく言っていいんですけど、僕が訴えられた物は大体10年ぐらい前の物だから、実は時効が来ているんだよね。時効って英語で何て言うんだろうね？ My court order is expired already!

ジ：That was his strategy. It's the statute of limitations, 10 years! 10年待つっていうのが戦略だったのね。時効になるまで。

ム：Haha.

ジ：How about in the states?

ム：We actually never have any sort of a regal trouble! Most concerned in the United States is DMCAs, hosting contents that breaching a copyright. There is a process for removing contents but the truth is, by the time I actually receiving the e-mail of DMCA, the contents on 4chan expires very quickly, just like Futaba.

I think 2ch stays pretty much indefinitely. For us, by the time I received the email, the links are gone! I have been to court though to testify. I was required by the law to do it. I've got to explain memes MIMEs and 4chans, the way that community works in front of the judge, juries and the press!

ジ：That was an unforgettable experience!

ム：Actually they thought that was really boring. They complained about because they have to explain about how IP addresses work. And they just come out, to the cafe, saying“So boring, where is the good staff?”

ジ：彼自体は4chanで訴えられた事なくて、DMCAだから版権物なんで、ちゃんと落としてくださいと。大体そういうレターとか来る前に、4chanて永久的には保存してないから、自分が裁判された事はないと。2chと違って永久的には保存しなから（笑）。アメリカではそういう対策。でもやっぱり知的財産というのが一番問題になって来る分野ではあると……。

ひ：でも、一回は裁判に出ている？

ジ：それは何で？　と聞くつもりなんだけど……連邦政府の裁判に行って、IPアドレスがどうこうとか、4chanのコミュニティどうやって作ったとか、中がどういう風になっているかとか、その辺を説明して、裁判官も陪審員もいて、証人が彼で……。

サピナ－っていって、行かないと強制的に逮捕されちゃう、それぐらい彼に出て来て欲しくって。でも、その説明をしたら、レポーターたちは凄いがっかり。IPの話を聞きに来たんじゃない！　みたいなね。What was the trial about?

ム：It was US v. David Kernell Carnell. The defendant David Kernell Carnell, hacked Sarah Palin's email address. He wasn't really hacking, he reset her password! The first place he posted was our 4chan. He used the proxy to do they already caught him, by the time they came to me but they said“we have this guy, he posted on your web site!”

ジ：オバマ大統領の時の選挙戦で、オバマ対マケインだったんだけど、マケインとサラ・ペイリンで、デービット・カーネルという人が彼女のEメールをハッキングして……まあ正確に言うと彼女のパスワードをリセットして、彼女のメールを全部見れるようにしたと。で、メールの内容を4chanに上げていた。だから証人として来いと。まあ自分は怒られなかったけれど。

ひ：まっ、2chでもよくあることですね！（笑）　Someone puts some letters or some mails, and they gonna get angry to me!

ジ：Says a happy mail, read this! 時間無制限で対談して、本出してくれ！

ひ：あっ、本を出せってこと？　出版ってこと？

ジ：ほーそれ、面白いねー！　誰も訳して無いなー（笑）。Not limit the time on the show, keep you guys going, and make a book out of it!

ム：Do you ever write a book?

ひ：I published a lot of books, but I am not a writer! I'm just printing their messages and then I made books.

ジ：That's was pretty nice! It means they really enjoyed the show and enjoyed you being here. Thank you for coming all the way to Tokyo to do this.

ム：Thank you for inviting me. Thanks for having me and everybody thanks for watching!

ジ：最後に、できたら4カメのほうで、ニコユーザー専用の。これは日本向けだけだっけ？　なので日本語で！

ひ：Could you type the canv.as …? というわけで、キャンバスの裏入口をこれから紹介します！　But they need a Facebook account？

ム：Yes. When you register an account, you sign up for Canvas login, you connect with Facebook to just verify your account. We don't actually use Facebook details anywhere on the site, we don't store. We ask for e-mail permissions, so we can send your e-mail, but otherwise your photo and your name, none of them are on the site, so it's safe to use!

We have the ability to contribute the canv.as anonymously! There is a check box. Posting anonymously, one of the things that we’ve they've learned from 4chan. More creative and authentic, anyway, we wanna keep that!

ジ：キャンバスというのは、登録する時に、一回facebookを使ってメアドとかそういうのチェックするんだけども、アカウントが無くっても4chanと同じような仕組みでも見れると……What was the is anonymity in Japanese?

ひ：匿名性？

ジ：だから匿名性を活かしたいからそれでも出来るし、まあfacebookのアカウントがあればそれでチェックして、もっといろんな機能が使えますよ！ ということで。

ひ：別に、facebookを使ってもメールアドレスを送るぐらいで、個人情報を取ったりしませんよ。It's safe! Someone is asking, why don't you make Japanese version of Canvas?

ム：Something we'd like to do it eventually. Nobody on the team speaks Japanese. We were focusing just on images and English right now. We'd love to extend it whoever wants to use. Just a matter of having resources to do so.

ジ：まあ今、英語版に集中しているし、ベータだし、日本語しゃべる人いないし？完成させないとね、まずね。（スタジオの一方を指して）でもこの二人日本語できるからいいんじゃない？　So do you guys have Nico-Nico accounts?

エンジニア－：Oh I do yes. I have been since 2007!

ひ：2007年からニコ動のアカウントを持っている。めっちゃユーザーとして古い。

ジ：（モデレーターを指して）How about you?

モデレーター：About the same time!

ジ：肝心なムートさんどうだろ？

ム：（ひきつった笑い）I can't ! I don't know how to register!

ジ：Just go to the English site.

ム：I didn't know that, until like yesterday.

ジ：今まで日本語版知らなかったからねー。うちも英語版はベータだから……。

ひ：とういわけで、そろそろ行かないと間に合わなくなるかなー？

ジ：いまからどこ行くの？

ム：We don't leave this room!

ひ：六本木！

ジ：That's the big hint “Roppongi”! When is your next presentational speech or big event you are going to?

ム： Actually, we are going to Brazil for a conference called UPIX in August. We gonna be as a company at the Photo Hack Day in NY. And I will be speaking in October, at the Web2.0 event in San Francisco.

ジ：まあ、彼ほとんどメディアに対してインタビューとかも出ないし、これでニコ動で二回目のビデオ・インタビュー！　で、基本的にはまあスピーチとかはやるけども、インタビューには応じない。それでUPIXっていうイベントが8月にあって、そこで話すのと、フォトハックデー、10月なんだけどもウェブ2．0のサンフランシスコのイベントでスピーチをすると。彼はニューヨークに住んでるんだけど、僕らもニューヨークに9月の頭ぐらいに行くから……。

ひ：We should meet you at New York!

ム：We should do something! Nico/4chan,ok! We will have party, and do something.

ひ：ということで、終わらせろという話がきてますので、えーと、ジェームスのホストでお送りしてきました1時間にわたるお話でしたけども、今回のゲストは、多分本名がクリストファー・プ－ルさん！

ジ：Do you have your passport?

（会場笑）

ひ：ありがとうございました。Thank you for watching!